Talk:Ketheric Thorm

Ketheric elf or half-elf?

Why does the wiki list him as a half-elf? His in-game description is "elf" and if you examine him in-game it shows his race as "elf." 45.86.210.218 22:55, 29 May 2025 (CEST)

Good question and valid observations. However, despite the in-game descriptor (likely an oversight) he is a high half elf.

I will add notes to him to explain.

Thank you for bringing this up. Raelin (talk) 01:19, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

In the game-files Ketheric is tagged only as Undead but also he technically inherits at least a part of his stats from "HalfElves_Male_High_NotMessingAround".

Also, it should be mentioned that according to Forgotten Realms Lore and BG3 Character Creator Elves unlike Half-Elves can't have beards. However, he obviously has one, which makes it more plausible that he is or at least was an Half-Elf before he became undead. But that would contradict at least the in-game narration where he is described as an Elf.

I assume the whole thing is an oversight by the devs. Hawkeye (talk) 03:33, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

I feel like the explanation written now is a tad bit excessive, no? There are 6+ paragraphs written that can be explained in a few lines or maybe a sentence or two per point. It honestly sounds like it's defending an argument in court to a judge. I don't think there is a need for a lengthy note over what is likely just an oversight by Larian (among many, many others). HiddenDragon (talk) 06:56, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

Yes, I wondered about that myself after having added it. I'll just put it here instead. Raelin (talk) 07:06, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

IMO the explanation is not only excessive, but also has redundant arguments, and also (what actually made me laugh) an argument like "we wrote it because other dataminers like FR or ourselves did write this, too". Personally, I'd leave point One (shortened), point Four (shortened), and the mentioning of Larian devs not correcting it. All other just be shoved into a single comment. Also, there is still a moment where he is called an elf: in the first vision where the Absolute shows him as one of her Chosen - maybe in cointrast to Gortash who is a human Arikel (talk) 07:08, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

I like your idea. Once that's in place on his page as you see fit, feel free to delete what's below. Raelin (talk) 07:12, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

My suggestion is as follows.

In the main text I would write:

"Ketheric Thorm is an Undead with at least some elven ancestry".

As a note to this I would write the following

"Ketheric is referenced as an Elf in-game during the narration of the vision near the Goblin Camp where he is first shown as one of the Absolute's Chosen. However, he also has a beard which is only possible for half-elves but not for elves according to the lore of the Forgotten Realms and also the in-game Character Creator. Also he is tagged as an Half-Elf in the game files. Thus it is unclear if Ketheric is an undead Elf or Half-Elf. This may be an oversight by the developers of Baldur's Gate 3." Hawkeye (talk) 13:30, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

At least for me examining Ketheric in-game (right mouse click context menu) shows his race only as "Undead".

And I didn't find any hidden data tag like " RaceType" neither in Norbyte's online search engine nor in the characters.json in the resources channel in the discord. I only found ""InheritsFrom": "HalfElves_Male_High_NotMessingAround"," for the ""MOO_Ketheric"" entry. Hawkeye (talk) 13:41, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

Ketheric Thorm as a half-elf

Although in-game narration sometimes describes Ketheric Thorm as an "elf", this is likely an oversight. Ketheric Thorm is a(n undead) high half-elf, as supported by the following:

• One What the game files say: every BG3 character has a hidden data tag called RaceType. Ketheric’s tag is High Half‑Elf in both of his stat blocks (MOO_Ketheric and the boss variant S_MOO_Ketheric_Transforming). This can be observed on community datamining sites like this wiki, which pull directly from the ".lsx files".
• Two What official wikis say: aside from this one, the Forgotten Realms wiki, which Larian writers often nudge fans toward for lore look‑ups, also lists him as a high half-elf. (In fairness, both this wiki and Forgotten Realms get that info from the same data, but it helps to show consensus.)
• Three Dev words on record: Larian’s Community Update that first revealed J K Simmons in the role calls him “a seemingly invincible necromancer” but never clarified his ancestry (it was already baked into the files the team was shipping). Consider also that no writer or designer has ever corrected the race flag in interviews, AMAs, or Panels From Hell. When the topic does pop up on reddit, Larian staff have stayed silent, which usually means the datamine should be taken as the canon answer.
• Four In‑game narrative hints: Ketheric has pointed ears and full beard: pure elves in Faerûn cannot grow facial hair, but half-elves can, so the art lines up. In addition, his daughter Isobel reads as half-elf and his wife Melodia is explicitly tagged half-elf in her tomb record. Two half-elf parents logically make another half-elf. Finally, no book or plaque ever calls him human or elf outright. NPCs just say “man” or “general,” which leaves the race detail to the files.
• Five Why some players get confused: early concept art showed a clean‑shaven, very elvish face. That art circulated during Early Access and stuck in people’s heads. When Larian updated the model with the beard for 1.0, some folks thought they had ret‑conned him into a human with pointy ears, but they did not. He was flagged high half-elf the entire time; the beard was just a late visual tweak.
• In summary - Although Larian has never contradicted the internal tag, almost every data source labels him high half-elf, and the visual plus family context backs this up. He is a high half-elf who 'lived' longer than normal because Myrkul refused to let him stay dead.

What do you think of a shorter version? Actually, all this might be put in the main article, not reference, as a subsection in Description, as it clearly was a point of fierce arguments (maybe still is).

• One What the game files and datamining say: every BG3 character has a hidden data tag called RaceType. Ketheric’s tag is High Half‑Elf in both of his stat blocks (MOO_Ketheric and the boss variant S_MOO_Ketheric_Transforming, pulled directly from the ".lsx files"). The Forgotten Realms wiki also lists him as a high half-elf, using the same data.
• Two Dev words on record: Larian’s Community Update introducing J K Simmons as VA calls Ketheric "a seemingly invincible necromancer" but does not clarify his ancestry. Inner files' info was never contradicted by gamedev staff in interviews, AMAs, Panels From Hell, or comments to various discussions.
• Three In‑game hints: Ketheric has mildly pointed ears and full beard (though in early concepts he featured a clean‑shaven elvish face, which continues to confuse some players), while pure elves (unlike half-elves) in Faerûn cannot grow facial hair. The model was updated with the beard for ver. 1.0. More so, his wife Melodia and his only daughter Isobel both read as half-elves, while other characters refer to him as "man" or "general". The only exception is the first vision instilled on the party by the Absolute, where the Narrator calls one of the Chosen "a mighty elf" - perhaps in contrast to other two humans.

No summary, because it just doubles some of the arguments (which usually freaks me out when reading RPG books - looks like "okay, we've still got 5 cm of free space, let's repeat the same things in other words")

I'll try using a variation of above text, but if this can be integrated into main text of the article, that's also good - and I know it's preferred now, when possible Raelin (talk) 30 May 2025 (CEST)

As my suggestions and questions from above may have been overseen, I post them here again:

My suggestion is as follows.

In the main text I would write:

"Ketheric Thorm is an Undead with at least some elven ancestry".

As a note to this I would write the following

"Ketheric is referenced as an Elf in-game during the narration of the vision near the Goblin Camp where he is first shown as one of the Absolute's Chosen. However, he also has a beard which is only possible for half-elves but not for elves according to the lore of the Forgotten Realms and also the in-game Character Creator. Also he is tagged as an Half-Elf in the game files. Thus it is unclear if Ketheric is an undead Elf or Half-Elf. This may be an oversight by the developers of Baldur's Gate 3."

Hawkeye (talk) 13:30, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

At least for me examining Ketheric in-game (right mouse click context menu) shows his race only as "Undead".

And I didn't find any hidden data tag like " RaceType" neither in Norbyte's online search engine nor in the characters.json in the resources channel in the discord. I only found ""InheritsFrom": "HalfElves_Male_High_NotMessingAround"," for the ""MOO_Ketheric"" entry. Hawkeye (talk) 13:41, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

I guess that the "InheritsFrom" entry is exactly what is meant as "stat blocks pulled from *.lsx files", isn't it?

The main part of what we've come to can be placed IMO by changing Appearance -> Appearance and Ancestry (for the former mentions his bloody beard, too), starting "One" now with "According to in-game examining, Ketheric is an Undead, and his appearance implies at least some elven ancestry. However, every BG3 character has..."

As for references, it stings me having them more than article itself since I saw a thoroughly-referenced edition of "Alice in Wonderland", where references to a single page could have taken two next pages in total. Arikel (talk) 19:20, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

Yeah, sometimes references to text could be far more extensive than the text itself.

That's why would like to have it shorter in this particular case.

This is now on the page as note and it's still to long:

"There is some debate about whether Ketheric Thorm is an elf or half-elf. Evidence appears to point towards him being a half-elf, based on the following:

What the game files and datamining say: every BG3 character has a hidden data tag called RaceType. Ketheric’s tag is High Half‑Elf in both of his stat blocks (MOO_Ketheric and the boss variant S_MOO_Ketheric_Transforming, pulled directly from the ".lsx files"). The Forgotten Realms wiki also lists him as a high half-elf, using the same data.

In‑game hints: Ketheric has mildly pointed ears and full beard (though in early concepts he featured a clean‑shaven elvish face, which continues to confuse some players), while pure elves, unlike half-elves, cannot grow facial hair. The model was updated with the beard for ver. 1.0. Additionally, his wife Melodia and his only daughter Isobel both read in-game as half-elves, while other characters refer to him as "man" or "general". The only exception is the first vision instilled on the party by the Absolute, where the Narrator calls one of the Chosen "a mighty elf" - perhaps in contrast to other two humans."

I'd try to shorten it. Hawkeye (talk) 21:34, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

Hm, updated it now, but it's not shorter now. Hawkeye (talk) 22:04, 30 May 2025 (CEST)

I tried to merge all this into appearance section. Feel free to undo, if anything. Arikel (talk) 09:43, 31 May 2025 (CEST)

Thanks, good work! Hawkeye (talk) 11:51, 31 May 2025 (CEST)